Testimony of Stanley Plotkin, January 11, 2018, 16:33:02

Part 8 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06qJA0kjww

00:11
dr. Plotkin Hanyu what has been marked
00:13
as plaintiffs exhibit 37 and 38 are
00:18
these letters also written by
00:22
individuals who are very experienced in
00:24
studying aluminum adjuvant yes well one
00:27
of the letters is from a French group
00:30
and I would point out that the French
00:34
government yes and he is the contents of
00:48
these letters similar to that of a
00:50
letter from Kershaw yes dr. Clark I'm
00:56
gonna hand you what's been marked as
00:58
plaintiffs exhibit 39 okay
01:06
this is a study entitled aluminum in the
01:09
brain tissue in autism correct yes okay
01:12
and it was published in the Journal of
01:14
trace elements in medicine of biology
01:16
correct yes and it found and according
01:20
to its author he found what he says is
01:24
some of the highest values of aluminum
01:26
in human tissue
01:27
yet recorded in the brains of these
01:30
autistic children who died prematurely
01:33
correct well I'd have to read the paper
01:36
but apparently that's the case
01:42
and do you know that the standout
01:45
observation in this study is that the
01:47
aluminum that he found was in the immune
01:49
cells of the brain including within
01:51
immune cells travelling into the brain
01:56
yes
02:01
but they were not associated with
02:03
neurons they also found aluminum in the
02:07
neurons as well dr. Plotkin correct but
02:10
mostly in other cells and immune related
02:15
cells right mune system related cells
02:18
cells the travel yes what is
02:24
encephalitis inflammation of the brain
02:27
what is encephalopathy well it's vague
02:31
term that means something's wrong with
02:33
the brain and what is its f'l myelitis
02:36
inflammation of the brain do all five of
02:39
the deep tap containing vaccines sold in
02:41
this country list encephalopathy within
02:44
seven days of a prior pertussis
02:46
containing vaccine as a contraindication
02:51
in other words if encephalitis is
02:54
present at the time of vaccination yes I
02:57
imagine so no meaning that if there was
03:00
encephalopathy within seven days of a
03:03
prior pertussis containing vaccination
03:06
that's a contraindication to getting
03:08
more pertussis vaccination oh yes yeah
03:10
and do all three of the hepatitis A
03:13
containing vaccines sold in this country
03:15
list encephalitis or encephalopathy as a
03:19
reported adverse reaction in section 6.2
03:22
of their product inserts well I don't
03:25
know that for sure but I imagine that it
03:29
is a contraindication do all three of
03:32
the hepatitis B containing vaccines sold
03:34
in this country list either and steffel
03:36
itis or encephalopathy as a reported
03:38
adverse reaction in section 6.2 of their
03:40
product insert yes do almost all of the
03:44
flu vaccine sold in this country list
03:45
encephalopathy or encephalitis I'm sorry
03:48
do almost all of the flu vaccines sold
03:52
in this country list encephalopathy or
03:55
encephalitis as a reported adverse
03:59
reaction in 6.2 yes of there insert yes
04:04
does the only chickenpox vaccine sold in
04:07
this country list encephalitis as a
04:09
reported adverse reaction yes
04:13
why do you think brain swelling after
04:15
vaccination is being reported in all of
04:17
these vaccines anything that happens
04:22
after vaccination is included in
04:25
contraindications that they are related
04:28
causally is not necessarily the case
04:34
what is the total quantity of antigen in
04:37
most pediatric vaccines
04:39
well that's very variable I mean perhaps
04:48
up to 50 milligrams depends entirely on
04:55
the vaccine miniscule amount though it's
04:58
very des I mean it's almost could you
05:01
even see with the naked eye if you had
05:03
it yeah you could some cases yeah some
05:06
cases mm-hmm but for most vaccines it
05:08
would probably be very difficult yes
05:10
okay are there any ingredients in
05:15
vaccines that you're aware of that can
05:17
damage the neurons not that I'm aware of
05:21
no okay there any vaccines any
05:24
ingredients vaccines that you're aware
05:25
that can damage you themselves oh well I
05:29
mean that depends on the concentrations
05:31
and so forth human cells of course are
05:35
susceptible to lots of substances but
05:42
again it's very much dependent on the
05:44
concentration do any of the vaccines on
05:48
the childhood schedule contain monkey
05:51
kidney cells
05:53
well the polio vaccine does okay I'll go
06:00
ahead I'm sorry oh go ahead
06:02
no that's I'll stop there okay
06:05
are the monkey kidneys used in making
06:07
the polio vaccine removed from the
06:10
monkey while the animals still alive
06:13
these days much of the polio vaccine is
06:19
produced in a continuous cell line of
06:21
derived for monkeys rather than
06:25
monkeys from live monkeys so to speak so
06:32
I I'm pretty sure that the ipoll vaccine
06:37
for example is produced in vero cells
06:40
okay and when you say continuous cell
06:43
line what do you mean by that I mean a a
06:46
cell that grows continuously derived
06:50
from tissues that were normal tissues to
06:55
begin with I'm sorry say that again
07:00
doctor so there they are cells that
07:03
continue to multiply
07:06
unlike cells from a let's say from a
07:09
kidney that will not continuously
07:12
multiply these are cells derived from
07:15
the kidney that will continue the
07:18
multiply and therefore can be used to
07:22
make vaccines in cells that continue to
07:25
multiply unabated our typical II
07:28
consider cancerous right well if it
07:31
depends on the circumstances and the
07:34
cells but it's true that cancer cells do
07:38
continue to replicate and definitely the
07:42
vero cells are only used at certain
07:46
passage levels they're not used you know
07:51
thousand passages further on in relation
07:57
to the amount of polio antigen in the
08:02
final polio vaccine product how much
08:04
monkey kidney cell material is there in
08:07
the final product is it about the same
08:10
amount is there more monkey kidney cell
08:13
less no I
08:15
I can't give you a figure offhand but
08:20
the I am pretty sure that the amount of
08:26
polio antigen is superior to the amount
08:28
of kidney antigen but you're not sure I
08:30
don't recall the exact amounts monkey
08:36
cellular material remaining in the
08:38
vaccine is can
08:39
that are either impurities or byproduct
08:40
of the manufacturing process correct yes
08:45
do any of the vaccines in the childhood
08:47
vaccine schedule contain blood serum
08:49
from calf's or other bovines well they
08:58
frequently calf serum is used to make
09:03
the vaccine but calf serum is removed
09:06
before the vaccine is used because you
09:10
don't want to send sensitize the
09:16
vaccinate through to cows
09:19
meaning if there was cows serum
09:21
remaining in the vaccine the child could
09:25
develop antibodies to essentially cow
09:28
yes cow products and that wouldn't that
09:31
would be and they could develop an
09:33
allergy to it I have if there were yes
09:36
if there were calf serum in the vaccines
09:39
correct okay but you're saying there's
09:48
no calf serum in vaccines right is
09:51
removed yes
10:19
dr. clock I'm gonna hand you with some
10:21
Marcus plaintiffs exhibit 40 what is
10:25
this vaccine excipient and media summary
10:30
okay and who produces this document the
10:34
CDC correct or the FDA I think it's the
10:40
FDA okay and this lists the ingredients
10:44
contained in various vaccines correct
10:46
yes okay
10:57
okay can you go to Ken Rick's on the
11:00
first page
11:01
that's ki n RI X yes C tap IP V do you
11:06
see in the third line down
11:09
it says calf serum yeah well that is
11:15
used to grow the polio virus right and
11:19
this is one of the ingredients that
11:21
remains in the vaccine I do not believe
11:25
so okay I mean the vaccine as I said is
11:30
made using the calf serum as a nutrient
11:34
but is is then removed right yes can you
11:44
go to the top of this document you see
11:47
it says you know what let me ask you
11:55
fear the question is then we'll come
11:56
back to this document dr. Baca few quick
11:59
questions and we'll come back to it do
12:01
any vaccines in the childhood schedule
12:02
contain embryonic guinea pig cell
12:05
cultures embryonic guinea pig I don't
12:15
think any current vaccine is made in
12:17
getting big cells varicella vaccine was
12:22
passage in getting pig cells but
12:25
certainly not made in guinea pig cells
12:28
do you know of any vaccines contain
12:30
cow's milk in it or hothouse yuck any
12:33
product derived from cows no any
12:37
component derive oh well it could be a
12:42
sin for example it could be yes Jason
12:45
think it could be used in dr. Plotkin
12:50
doctor parking in and if a there was
12:54
kaizen in the vaccine a child could
12:57
become sensitized to that correct well
12:59
I'm not sure about that you're not sure
13:01
anymore about that no I think there are
13:03
other sensitizing things in calf serum
13:09
dr. plug can I see that one second
13:11
sure sure um so earlier you said okay so
13:28
do do any vaccines contain egg protein
13:30
oh yes influenza and see those remain in
13:35
the final product I believe they do yes
13:40
not huge amounts but there are traces
13:45
certainly to any vaccines contain
13:47
gelatin from pigs yes do any vaccines
13:51
contain gelatin from cows actually I
14:00
think in Muslim countries they have
14:04
tried to do that but mostly it's from
14:12
pig joinha vaccines contain recombinant
14:15
GMO yeast combination animos yes I
14:22
imagine so yes are there any other
14:25
animal products heart cells material or
14:28
any other kind that you are aware of
14:29
that are contained in any vaccine in the
14:32
pediatric schedule
14:42
well aside from trace amounts no yeah
14:48
guys unfortunately my five o'clock here
14:50
so I gotta cut this short
14:53
well we're we're not we're not done so
15:00
we need to you know so we're gonna I can
15:04
you come back tomorrow morning doctor no
15:05
absolutely not
15:06
okay well counsel we need to how long is
15:10
your you need to move whatever you have
15:12
right now then because I don't I I'm not
15:16
done with the deposition I don't know
15:23
that the notice says from day to day
15:25
he's under subpoena he needs to be here
15:29
today it's only it's only five o'clock
15:32
and it says from day to day so
15:35
tomorrow's the next day he's not
15:38
available he's not available you guys to
15:40
field three to Train have you held in
15:41
contempt well he's in Pennsylvania but I
15:43
gotta go okay so then we'll let us know
15:53
when you're done half an hour we'll
15:55
start at 5:30 then or if we get done
15:57
earlier what does she have to be present
15:59
dub do you mind if we continue without
16:02
you being present dr. Plotkin says he's
16:04
fine with continuing without you okay
16:07
with that that's fine with me I think
16:09
he's got a pretty good handle on things
16:13
okay great then we'll continue all right
16:16
thank you yeah I'm gonna leave you guys
16:22
on speaker in my office because that's
16:24
in the conference room and I'll be back
16:27
joining vaccines on the childhood
16:29
vaccine schedule contain MRC five human
16:32
diploid cells yes
16:34
what are these rubella varicella
16:39
hepatitis A
16:45
let's see what our mr c5 cells they are
16:53
human fibroblast cell strain and how are
16:57
they created they were created by taking
17:01
fetal tissue and from a particular fetus
17:09
that was aborted by maternal choice and
17:14
the cells the so called fibroblast cells
17:17
were cultivated from from that tissue
17:22
the fibroblast cells replicate for about
17:26
50 passages and then die so mr c5 cells
17:32
are cultured cell lines from aborted
17:36
fetal tissue and not cell lines that are
17:38
they sell strains cultivated from an
17:43
aborted fetus yes so so strains from
17:48
aborted fetus yeah they're not immortal
17:50
okay so they they live for five
17:53
generations and then they do about 50
17:55
generations about 50 generations and
17:57
then they die yes and then how is more
17:59
mr c5 created well a seed stock is made
18:06
of early passage cells so that one can
18:08
go back to the seed stock which is let's
18:12
say it the more or less the eighth
18:15
passage and make new cells at the 20th
18:21
passage and use those to make the
18:23
vaccine okay so these are these cell
18:27
strains are human cells yes okay do any
18:34
vaccines on the childhood vaccine
18:36
schedule contained WI 38 human diploid
18:39
lung fibroblasts well they used to but I
18:42
don't think anything is made in those
18:45
cells anymore
18:46
there have been replaced by MRC five so
18:50
you're not aware of any vaccine that has
18:53
in its final formulation wi 38 human
18:56
diploid slunk fibre bless
18:58
as I said at one point in the past RA 27
19:04
3 for example rubella vaccine was grown
19:08
in Wi 38 but the supply is insufficient
19:14
so MRC 5 is now used and these and and
19:20
and wi 38 was created from an aborted
19:24
fetus yes they took the lung tissue from
19:28
the aborted fetus yes and from that they
19:31
grown this cell line cress cell strain
19:35
so strength and is this cell line
19:43
immortal no do any vaccines on the
19:49
childhood vaccine schedule contain human
19:51
albumin oh yes mmm what is human albumin
19:56
you may album it's part of human serum
19:59
and what is human Sara what's what is
20:03
human serum human serum is part of the
20:06
blood that is liquid right it's the non
20:10
red blood cell part of the right from
20:15
where was it obtained the human serum
20:18
yes well that is would be variable from
20:24
donors who are healthy don't donors
20:31
that's well I well I could say to that
20:36
how is it using the manufacturing
20:38
process I'm sorry how is it used in the
20:41
manufacturing process
20:42
well the serum is used to keep cells
20:46
healthy during the process of making a
20:50
vaccine so in other words since the
20:54
vaccines or some vaccines have to be
20:58
grown in in cells you have to keep the
21:04
cells in a good State
21:08
[Music]
21:11
so the cells that are to use the vet the
21:14
virus or bacteria the virus is used in
21:17
some of the vex sorry the virus is used
21:20
in some of the vaccines are grown in
21:23
this human blood component well yes I
21:28
I believe that the serum is removed in
21:34
the final product but certainly it's
21:39
important to keep the cells healthy
21:41
during the manufacture of the vaccine do
21:46
you think that none of it remains in the
21:48
final product I don't believe so no
21:50
because that could be problematic right
21:52
well it could be I mean if if the
21:56
individual is not not healthy right or
22:01
or if maybe some of the you know human
22:05
blood components bind to some of the
22:08
aluminum and develop antibodies self
22:10
antibodies correct if they develop
22:13
antibodies against a serum component
22:15
that would not be good right what do any
22:21
vaccines contain human material in them
22:24
that I'm sorry strike that apologies do
22:29
any vaccines on the childhood vaccine
22:31
schedule contain recombinant human al
22:33
albumin yes okay what is this sorry what
22:37
is recombinant human element it's made
22:40
it's albumin sorry recombinant human
22:44
albumin that's a al B um I am yeah yeah
22:54
so it's a component of human serum which
22:58
is useful to stabilize cells and keep
23:02
them healthy and it's made by genetic
23:07
engineering okay so it's genetically
23:12
engineered human serum basically the
23:18
part of human serum yes
23:25
is that these genetically engineered
23:28
protein structures yes and the idea was
23:32
to eliminate any possibility of a
23:35
contaminant from human albumin obtained
23:39
from donors so it's made in in cells you
23:45
using the the the DNA for albumin and
23:50
that way one can be sure that there's no
23:53
contaminant and again you pretty much
23:56
want to make sure that none of that
23:58
remained in the final product - right
24:00
well human albumin is probably not much
24:05
of a problem in terms of of causing
24:08
reactions so but in terms of it
24:12
potentially binding to the alum that
24:14
could be problematic correct well I
24:19
don't know the answer to that question I
24:22
okay
24:32
the vaccines that contain human material
24:35
in them they also contain human DNA and
24:37
protein correct they may yes isn't it
24:46
true that human DNA in vaccines is
24:48
typically purposely fragmented to below
24:50
500 base pairs in length yes one doesn't
24:54
know I would say mostly for theoretical
24:59
reasons doesn't want to put DNA into
25:04
attack DNA into vaccines I think the the
25:11
actual risk is zero but that's my
25:14
opinion isn't it true that MMR 2
25:19
contains approximately 150 nanograms
25:21
cells substrate double strand DNA and
25:24
single strand DNA per dose purposely
25:29
fragmented to approximately 215 base
25:32
pairs in length yeah that's probably
25:34
correct yes okay and is it true that
25:38
Vera box vaccine for chickenpox is
25:42
manufactured using wi 38 and MRC five it
25:46
contains approximately 2 micrograms of
25:49
cell substrate no problem and continue
25:53
and contains approximately 2 micrograms
25:58
of cell substrate double-stranded DNA or
26:01
approximately 1 trillion fragments of
26:04
human DNA it may it may be true isn't it
26:11
true that have ryx a hepatitis A vaccine
26:14
also contains millions of fragments of
26:17
human DNA likely do you know whether
26:23
strands of DNA below 500 base pairs are
26:26
now known to insert themselves into
26:29
living cells with which they come into
26:31
contact I do not have that information
26:35
but the likelihood that they would be
26:41
genetically in
26:43
the genome of vaccinees in my view is
26:46
zero to a study to support that view I
26:51
do not have a study that supports that
26:53
view but it is to me unlikely that the
26:57
DNA would travel from the site of
26:59
injection to the semen or the the
27:02
ovaries to insert itself into DNA and
27:09
even in in the muscle tissue or if it
27:12
gets into the blood into theoretically
27:15
but that's not going to mean that it's
27:17
going to have any impact on the
27:20
individual are you familiar with the in
27:23
with you familiar with insertional
27:24
mutagenesis yes okay do you have any
27:27
study to show that injecting millions of
27:31
pieces of human DNA into babies and
27:34
children is safe the only studies are
27:39
all the safety studies that have been
27:41
done on vaccines and you can produce
27:44
those studies right well those studies
27:46
are available from the manufacturers and
27:50
and from CDC and I'm not aware of any
27:55
day that are showing that they her
27:58
heritable characteristic was transmitted
28:01
by a vaccine so you don't so you don't
28:08
personally don't know of any study that
28:10
shows the safety of injecting human
28:13
millions of pieces of human DNA into
28:16
babies such studies are general safety
28:19
studies and I haven't yet seen the
28:21
vaccine II develop a new genetic trait
28:24
as a result of vaccination it's possible
28:28
that it can cause cancer anything is
28:30
possible but there are no data to
28:32
support that is there data to show that
28:34
it doesn't do that yes okay observations
28:38
made over millions of vaccinees okay and
28:41
you have the study to show that right
28:44
the studies are easily available in
28:49
terms of vaccine safety studies that
28:52
have been done by many many people acts
28:56
then it should be very easy for you to
28:57
direct those each of those and you can
29:00
want to read the chapter on vaccine
29:02
safety vaccines contain dead or weakened
29:15
polio virus correct
29:17
I like P V does yes okay a beginning in
29:21
the 1950s polio vaccines were routinely
29:23
grown on non-human primate kidney cells
29:26
correct correct are you aware of any
29:29
simian monkey viruses meaning viruses
29:33
that come from primates that
29:35
contaminated polio vaccines and infected
29:38
individuals receiving the polio vaccine
29:40
yes sv40 okay what does sv40 stand for
29:43
simian virus 40 what was it the 40th
29:47
simian virus found is that why it's
29:49
called are you aware of any other simian
29:52
viruses that that that are in any
29:54
vaccine at this stage no are you aware
30:01
of any bovine virus that is in any
30:02
vaccine well bovine virus nothing comes
30:20
to mind at the moment are you aware of
30:22
any virus from any animal other than
30:24
simian or bovine that is in any vaccine
30:27
yes
30:29
there's a pig virus present in one of
30:33
the rotavirus vaccines
30:35
what's that virus called circle virus
30:41
yes is there more than one type or is
30:44
there only one oh there was more than
30:46
one type but I think only one was
30:48
recovered from the vaccine uh-huh
30:52
which one is that I think it was two
30:56
circle virus - I think so
31:00
are you aware of any retro viruses that
31:03
are in any vaccine
31:06
retroviruses no you aware of any prions
31:09
that are in any vessel are you aware of
31:15
any human viruses that are in any
31:17
vaccine apart from the virus for which
31:20
the vaccine is intended no you indicated
31:28
that they did find a porcine circle
31:33
virus type 2 in rotavirus correct yes
31:37
was that unintentional yes when it was
31:42
released to the market they didn't know
31:44
that virus was in there correct correct
31:46
and then when they released the polio
31:48
vaccine on the market they didn't know s
31:50
before he was in there correct correct
31:57
are you aware of how many micrograms of
32:00
2 Fenno pH E and a why e th ano L 2
32:13
phenoxyethanol yeah are you aware of how
32:16
many micrograms are to phenoxyethanol
32:18
a child following the childhood vaccine
32:20
schedule would be injected with no I'd
32:23
have to cut that up do you think it's
32:26
close to around 100 micrograms it could
32:31
be but I'd have to look it up do you
32:33
know the safe level in terms of in that
32:36
ingredient I am not aware that there
32:43
that there is toxicity associated with 2
32:48
phenoxyethanol that's okay
32:51
fairly harmless substance as far as I'm
32:55
aware you know any vaccines on the
32:58
childhood schedule that include ferric
32:59
nitrate ferric nitrate no I don't recall
33:08
that are you aware of how many
33:10
micrograms of polysorbate 80 a child
33:12
following the vaccine schedule will be
33:14
injected with I don't have the amount
33:17
and
33:23
now I'm gonna give you back exhibit 40
33:28
dr. Plotkin take a look at that a moment
33:32
you indicated that you weren't aware the
33:35
WI thirty-eight was in the final vaccine
33:39
product you could turn to page three for
33:42
MMR and MMRV
33:49
do you see that within the ingredient
33:52
list that lists WI 38 human diploid lung
33:55
fibroblasts
33:58
yes I do see that okay I believe that of
34:04
the ingredients that we discussed till
34:06
now the rest of them you indicated you
34:10
you are aware is our in vaccines except
34:14
for are there any ingredients we've
34:18
discussed till now that you you believe
34:23
are not in vaccines well I'd have to go
34:29
back over all the questions you asked
34:32
but I do want to say that WI 38 as I
34:36
said before was the original fibroblast
34:40
cell line and I I think that
34:43
manufacturers have shifted to MRC five
34:45
but WI thirty-eight could still be used
34:49
and I don't see any anything wrong with
34:53
that
34:58
are there any vaccine ingredients that
35:00
are not listed on the FDA's official
35:05
vaccine excipient and media summary
35:07
table that you're aware of I don't see
35:12
how I can really answer that question
35:14
without reading the the whole thing but
35:18
I imagine that it's a complete list
35:24
isn't it true that an adjuvant will bind
35:28
not only to the target antigen but also
35:31
to the impurities and by-product of the
35:34
manufacturing process probably probably
35:36
yes and those impurities and byproducts
35:41
are all listed in what has been marked
35:43
as Exhibit number 40
35:51
once the impurities are byproducts are
35:56
bound to the aluminum the body may also
35:59
develop antibodies to these impurities
36:01
and byproducts correct may is the
36:04
operative word but not necessarily the
36:07
entire purpose of the aluminum binding
36:11
to a protein structure be it an antigen
36:15
or some other protein structure is to
36:19
cause an immune response yes well of
36:21
antibodies correct yes but the protein
36:23
has to be of the right size and
36:26
presentation in order to induce an
36:28
immune response and that will not always
36:32
be the case of the protein is small or
36:37
is something not recognized by the human
36:40
immune system do you know whether the
36:49
protein structure for any of the
36:51
ingredients on exhibit 40 are not the
36:55
right size to bind to alum well I think
37:00
it's unlikely that monosodium glutamate
37:04
for example will will cause an immune
37:09
response I have to look through the
37:16
whole thing but amino acids probably are
37:21
unlikely to induce an immune response
37:23
anything else you want me to read this
37:28
whole no I'm just asking I mean in terms
37:30
of just just the stuff that's got
37:32
protein structures at
37:36
well things like calf serum if they were
37:41
present would would possibly induce an
37:46
immune response but the things on this
37:50
list
37:51
the vast majority of them are unlikely
37:54
to do so because they're not protein
37:55
structures they're not proteins or they
37:57
were or they're very small okay other
38:08
than the strike that
38:23
how about you and we talked earlier
38:25
human album and that would be of a big
38:27
enough protein structure to bind to
38:29
album correct it could although the fact
38:32
that it's human means that individuals
38:36
might well not respond to that is not
38:43
respond to albumin albumin is a foreign
38:46
protein right maybe not alone right but
38:49
bound to alum then it might correct
38:52
it might what I'm not aware of evidence
38:56
that does anywhere ever study that
39:01
looked at that issue I have not read
39:03
such a study no
39:20
how about the human DNA to believe that
39:25
the human DNA strands can bind to the
39:28
alum No
39:35
why is that I don't see any chemical
39:38
reason why it should any reason why it
39:41
shouldn't proving a negative is always
39:47
more difficult well I'm just trying to
39:49
know if you if you know or you're just
39:51
you're not sure that's all I'm not
39:52
asking I'm just saying if you don't know
39:55
just say you don't know I have no reason
39:57
to believe that DNA will bind to albumin
40:00
but you don't know for sure I have not
40:03
done the experiment no okay and do you
40:06
know whether it will bind to any of the
40:09
cellular debris from mr.c v or wi 38
40:14
whether human albumin would bind know
40:17
whether alum would bind to MRC v or any
40:21
of the cellular debris that's in the
40:23
final product from mr.c v i i think it
40:28
could but i don't know that it does do
40:31
you know whether alum could bind to any
40:33
of the cellular debris from wi 38 it
40:38
might but I don't know that for a fact
40:41
do you know whether alum would bind to
40:44
any of the gelatin from pigs
40:47
I think that's unlikely why is that
40:53
I don't think that alum would bind to
40:58
gelatin but I don't know that for a fact
41:01
what about egg protein could alum bind
41:05
to a protein possibly and to kaizen I
41:14
suppose it's possible but I'm not aware
41:17
of any evidence you don't know I don't
41:21
know
41:46
in so in okay come in your work related
42:01
to vaccines
42:02
how many fetuses have been part of that
42:05
work my own personal work - - so in your
42:12
in all of your work related to vaccines
42:14
throughout your whole career you've only
42:16
ever worked with two fetuses in terms of
42:19
making vaccines yes yes
42:39
and I'm gonna hand you what's been
42:45
marked plaintiffs exhibit 41 okay are
42:54
you familiar with this article dr.
42:56
Botkin yes hey are you listed as an
43:08
author on this article yes this study
43:15
took place at the Wistar Institute
43:16
correct yes you were at the wind starts
43:19
- correct yes
43:22
how many fetuses were used in the study
43:25
described in this article quite a few
43:29
but my answer to my the previous
43:32
question was what did I use to make
43:35
vaccines and the answer was - can you
43:39
read back the question I had asked no
43:43
prior
43:55
in your work related to vaccines how
43:57
many fetuses have been part of that work
43:59
answer my own personal work - okay so
44:02
I'm gonna ask that question again in
44:03
your work related to vaccines
44:05
how many that fetuses were involved in
44:08
that work there were only two fetuses
44:11
involved in making vaccines when fetal
44:19
strains of fibroblast strains were first
44:22
developed I was involved in that work
44:27
trying to characterize those cells but
44:30
they were not used to make vaccines
44:33
wasn't the purpose of this study to help
44:37
develop a human cell line or to support
44:41
the use of human cell lines in the
44:44
creation of vaccines the idea was to
44:47
study the cell strains from fetuses to
44:52
determine whether or not they could be
44:54
used to make vaccines so this was
44:56
related to your work well yes and it's
44:59
in a sense that means correct yes it was
45:03
prepare Ettore so this study involved 74
45:11
fetuses correct I don't remember exactly
45:14
how many turn to page 12 of the study
45:23
you know 76 76 and these fetuses were
45:30
all three months or older when aborted
45:33
correct yes and these were all normally
45:35
developed fetuses correct yes okay these
45:40
included fetuses that were border for
45:42
social and psychiatric reasons correct
45:44
correct
45:48
what organs did you harvest from these
45:50
fetuses well I didn't personally harvest
45:53
any but a whole range of tissues were
45:58
harvested by coworkers okay and these
46:03
pieces were then cut up into little
46:04
pieces right yes and they were cultured
46:09
yes okay some of the pieces of the
46:14
fetuses were pituitary gland that were
46:18
that were chopped up into pieces -
46:20
mm-hmm okay included the lung of the
46:22
fetuses yes okay
46:24
included skin yes kidney yes spleen
46:28
yes heart yes and tongue I don't recall
46:35
but the a--probably yes um so I just
46:41
want to make sure I understand in in in
46:43
your entire career and this was just one
46:47
study so I'm gonna ask let me ask you
46:49
again in your entire career how many
46:52
fetuses have you worked with well I
46:55
don't probably exact number but quite a
46:58
few when we were studying them
47:00
originally before we decided to use them
47:03
to make vaccines have any sense I mean
47:08
this is one study had 76 how many other
47:11
studies did you have that you use the
47:12
board of fetuses otherwise and I don't
47:14
remember how many you're you're where
47:16
are you aware that the one of the
47:19
objections of vaccination by the
47:22
plaintiff in this case is the inclusion
47:25
of aborted fetal tissue in the
47:28
development of vaccines and the fact
47:30
that it's actually a part of the
47:32
ingredients of vaccines yeah I'm aware
47:34
of those objections the Catholic Church
47:37
has actually issued the document on that
47:40
which says that individuals who need the
47:44
vaccine should receive the vaccines
47:45
regardless of the fact and that that I
47:49
think it implies that I am the
47:53
individual who will go to hell because
47:55
of the use of aborted tissues which I am
47:59
glad to do okay do you know if the
48:02
mother is Catholic I have no idea okay
48:06
so she should consult her priest if she
48:10
hasn't if she's in fact Christian I
48:12
guess right in any event so we have 76
48:18
in this study would you approximate
48:20
it's been a few hundred fetuses oh no I
48:22
don't think it was that many okay
48:25
probably not many more than in this
48:27
paper and I should stipulate that we had
48:35
nothing to do with the cause of the
48:39
abortion some of these were for
48:51
psychiatric institutions correct
48:55
actually all I can say is that the the
49:01
fetuses that I personally worked with
49:03
actually came from Sweden and from a
49:07
Swedish coworker and so I in no case was
49:13
able to determine what exactly the
49:16
reason for the abortion was I'm just
49:18
asking you some of the fetuses that you
49:20
did use did come from abortions from
49:24
people who are in psychiatric
49:25
institutions correct
49:27
I don't know that on what I'm telling
49:28
you is that I got them from a co-worker
49:31
and if it's stated in the paper it's
49:36
true but otherwise I do not know so if
49:39
it's in the paper you don't contest it
49:40
right I don't contest it okay
49:45
have you ever used orphans to study an
49:49
experimental vaccine yes have you ever
49:53
used the mentally handicapped to study
49:55
an experimental vaccine I don't
50:05
recollect ever doing studies and
50:08
mentally handicapped individuals at the
50:14
time in the 1960s it was not an uncommon
50:18
practice
50:22
so you're saying I'm not clearing your
50:30
answer I'm sorry did you give you have
50:32
you ever used the mentally handicapped
50:34
to study an experimental vaccine what
50:37
I'm saying is I don't recall
50:39
specifically having done that but that
50:43
in the 1960s it was not unusual to do
50:47
that and I I wouldn't deny that I may
50:53
have done so okay okay I'm gonna read
51:06
you a sentence from what's been
51:07
previously marked as Exhibit 7 so and
51:25
well in any event he's you're not
51:27
denying that that that you that you well
51:35
there's an article entitled attenuation
51:38
of RA 2073 rubella virus in Wi 38 human
51:42
diploid cells you familiar with that
51:43
article yes in that article one of the
51:48
things that says is 13 is one of the
51:52
things that says is 13 sir negative
51:55
mentally retarded children were given
51:57
are 8 27 3 vaccine okay well then that's
52:01
in that case that's what I did okay
52:07
have you ever expressed that it's better
52:10
to perform experiments and those less
52:14
likely to be able to contribute to
52:15
society such as children with handicap
52:19
than with children without our adults
52:23
without handicaps
52:25
I don't remember specifically but it's
52:28
possible and again I repeat that in the
52:32
1960s
52:34
that was more or less common practice
52:38
I've since changed my mind but those
52:44
were that was a long time ago do you
52:57
remember ever writing to the editor of
53:00
ethics on human experimentation
53:02
I don't remember specifically but I may
53:09
well have Marcus yes when they hand you
53:29
with some markers exhibit 43 do you
53:35
recognize this letter you wrote to the
53:37
editor yes did you write this letter yes
53:41
okay is one of the things you wrote the
53:52
question is whether we are to have
53:54
experiments performed on fully
53:56
functioning adults and on children who
53:59
are potentially contributors to society
54:00
or to perform initial studies and
54:03
children and adults who are human in
54:05
form but not in social potential yes
54:09
okay it may be objected that this
54:11
question implies a Nazi philosophy but I
54:13
do not think that is difficult to
54:15
distinguish non functioning persons from
54:18
members of ethnic racial economic or
54:19
other groups mm-hmm have you ever used
54:27
babies of mothers in prison to study an
54:30
experimental vaccine yes have you ever
54:33
used individuals under coal colonial
54:36
rule to study an experimental vaccine
54:37
yes did you do so in the Belgian Congo
54:42
yes
54:43
did that experiment involve almost a
54:45
million people
54:47
well well alright yes okay did you ever
54:54
visit
54:55
what was the Belgian Congo and rindy
54:58
rindy yes how many times once yes are
55:05
you a NDA - you are und I
55:12
when was that visit 1959 and how long
55:18
were you there
55:18
a couple of months - months I think so
55:24
yes
55:25
could it have been longer no I don't
55:28
think it was longer than that
55:29
what places did you visit what was then
55:34
called léopoldville Stanleyville he
55:42
Ville ki boo yes hey Ivy you yes Burundi
55:53
huh it could have been a couple of other
56:02
places but I don't remember okay I've
56:06
heard you talk I've heard some of yours
56:07
and some of your speeches you you
56:09
remember this trip fondly Erik all right
56:12
well it fundly may not be the right word
56:14
but I do remember it as an important
56:18
event in what order did you visit the
56:21
places you just told me which one do you
56:25
think you visit first
56:26
Leopold Ville okay and then after that
56:29
Stanleyville 10 then the eastern part of
56:35
the Congo is that key boo yeah and
56:42
Bukavu Bukavu is that before or after
56:47
Burundi before team so Bukavu be UK a
56:54
video
56:57
so Leopoldville then Stanleyville and ki
57:00
boo
57:03
bucum and then Burundi so how how long
57:08
were you in Libreville oh gosh III don't
57:11
I can't answer that question I
57:13
proximately ever a couple of weeks
57:16
probably okay how long is Stanleyville I
57:20
don't know three four weeks III can't
57:24
possibly remember that far back
57:26
and then kelan q approximately oh sure
57:30
time okay and then Buckland I'm sorry
57:35
bucum Bukavu Bukavu de o bu kuv the UK
57:44
AV you maybe you sorry bukavu pucks me
57:51
how long a couple of days okay
57:54
and then finally Burundi again I don't
57:59
know maybe a week I'm not sure okay what
58:08
were you doing in Libreville I was
58:12
examining the data on oral polio
58:15
vaccination in the city okay anything
58:19
else no did you vaccinate anybody
58:24
personally no okay
58:26
how about in what we were doing in
58:28
Stanleyville I was visiting the
58:31
chimpanzee laboratory and talking into
58:37
scientists in Stanleyville talking about
58:41
what all about polio mainly okay what
58:46
about polio what about polio
58:49
obviously they were having polio and I
58:52
was talking about how to protect the
58:56
people against polio okay and did you
59:00
vaccinate anybody and while you're in
59:01
Stanleyville personally hor saline
59:03
though okay what did you do in ki vu
59:09
so I recall I just visited the place any
59:13
purpose I don't think so no you
59:18
vaccinate anybody that was a scenic area
59:22
okay
59:23
did you vaccinate personally the hell
59:25
okay what about bukuvu I did not do any
59:32
vaccinations they are either and what
59:34
were you doing there I was just visiting
59:37
like a tourist yes
59:39
same thing with Kibo as a tourist yes
59:42
and what about Burundi well there I had
59:45
some discussions with a scientist okay
59:52
about what about polio okay did you
59:55
other than that did you do anything else
59:58
in Burundi no did you vaccinate me
60:00
personally no okay during your entire
60:03
trip
60:04
did you vaccinate anybody personally no
60:07
so your whole trip to